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Post by Konkor on Jun 28, 2010 19:10:00 GMT -5
I agree with all that you have said except when you said that prayers to God might be considered magick: -to people that practice magick,it is the manipulation of the energy around us to produce a desired effect,this is done through awareness on the desired out come to gather energy to it.(I know these things because I USED to practice it,thinking I had discovered the secret of the universe and the meaning of life,UNTIL I was delivered by God.
-prayer,to Christians,Jewish people,and Muslims,it is a direct communication between God and the individual man,whether it be asking for protection of loved ones,to bring peace to ones mind,or to forgive sins.
-to magick practitioners,prayer is just practicing magick without knowing,by focusing on what the person is asking for,which then adds the energy to come true. ^a problem with this is that people who pray are not necessarily focusing on the resolution of their problems but instead worrying about them,after all they sometimes "talk" to God about them and put the problem in God's hands for Him to think of the solution.
-My belief is that meditation and other acts like it open the doors to spirits(demons) which eventually sink deep into the body until they can here thoughts,and they act accordingly to them. ^I have read of an NDE(near death experience)where ,in spirit,a person(who was floating over a city)looked towards a bar and saw spirits which went into a person who collapsed after drinking to much.When the person collapsed,the golden aura(everyone alive had a golden glow surrounding them) that surrounded him cracked and the spirit entered through the crack.
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 28, 2010 19:23:23 GMT -5
Most fascinating, you definitely have an interestingly detailed definition of magic, I usually just go with "the performance of acts or rituals in order to achieve I desired effect" I think there's a whole youtube video series detailing and defining magic as well as chronicling the ways magic has been used throughout the ages. A lot of spells look just like prayers to me, just not to the christian god. Plus incense, herbs, salt, those things used in a lot of magic rituals are technically supposed to be part of the whole worship experience but most christians ignore them. A lot of the rules Moses relayed to the Jews sound to me like magical rituals, but hey, that's just my opinion.
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 28, 2010 19:31:28 GMT -5
actually I finished my scanning, if you'd like I will type these on the forum so you can read them, but for now I'll just tell you where to find them: Matthew 9:6-8 17:18-20 21:21-22 Mark 11:22-24 John 10:34-36 which refers to Psalms 82:6
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 28, 2010 19:33:29 GMT -5
Also, I'm not arguing polytheism but Job is an interesting read when you look through the conversations between god and the devil and the people that are around them paying special attention to how the bible refers to those other people that are there when god's conversation with the devil starts
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 28, 2010 19:35:07 GMT -5
If you no longer wish to continue debating at least read the above for the heck of it
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Post by Konkor on Jun 28, 2010 22:02:08 GMT -5
-Mark 11:22 ^Key word:God You must have faith in God. All power(ruler ship included) comes from God.
-Genesis 3:5 ^The devil mingles truth in lies. For they indeed became as "gods",KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL. God Himself said they had become as one of Us,KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL. Us-Possibly a conversation between God and His Angels,as they were already created. Angels were created with a natural KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL and they could be considered as "gods",after all God is the God of all gods. But just because they could be considered "gods" angels should never be worshiped,and TRUE angels wish for God to be worshiped,and Him alone.(Revelation 19:10)
If you battle me with logic,I will battle back with logic. If you wish to use the Bible against me,you will find out you will always lose because the Bible is the Truth and I am on the Truth's side. Before we start debating on the Bible,you should finish proving my proof of an all powerful,conscious,transcendent Creator and Sustainer,wrong unless you can not. HA HA HA
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 28, 2010 22:43:05 GMT -5
actually I already replied to you in pm format and await your response if you have one. and as for your final paragraph I find it to be indignant, A. you do not hold a monopoly over truth, you should be humble, for you are supposedly representing Christians in this matter, yet you make yourself a braggart before all our eyes when there is not even room for bragging yet. you've made no great steps towards victory as far as I can tell. Tell me, why should I "finish proving your proof of an all powerful, concious, transcendent creator and sustainer, wrong" you have no proof. There is little prove that you could possibly possess short of that creator and sustainer coming down before us and revealing it/him/herself. I do not have to prove your theory wrong because you cannot possibly prove my theory wrong, quite simply put there is no legitimate proof. Where before you were debating in a friendly manner, now you are beginning to incite my wrath. Keep it polite and civil, or else show us the folly of your way, whichever you prefer, but be warned that pompousness will only verify to everyone what I sense they already suspect. That is to say it will verify that you have not accepted a way of truth but have blinded yourself and called your ignorance the truth. I can just as easily sit here and proclaim that my way is right and you are foolishly losing to me and my correct beliefs and you are just too much the fool to see it and ignore your plea to see reason. I simply refrain because I wish to engage you on an intellectual level, so don't push my buttons, especially when I'm the only one still treating you as if you were still a half decent human being.
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 28, 2010 22:53:35 GMT -5
oh and by the way, "the proof that god exists" article isn't logical, it's asinine and uses shallow assumptions to create an illusion of reason to anyone that can be easily manipulated. Kinda reminds me of the bible itself, it only makes sense if you listen to what other people tell you to think
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 28, 2010 22:54:50 GMT -5
oh your god they're both that stupid
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 28, 2010 22:57:11 GMT -5
I even have to make stuff up to get through the first article cuz he's not open minded enough to have put options that resemble the ways I reasonably conclude issues
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 28, 2010 23:01:00 GMT -5
Ya know, here's the real issue at the end of the day, there are two types of people in this world when it comes to logic and reason. There are the ones that arrogantly think they know something and the ones wise enough to admit that they know relatively little at the end of the day. I say wise because if you admit you don't know you open yourself up to potential realities and you run the risk of learning something. If you arrogantly think you already know then you'll never accept it when you're wrong and eventually will come to inhibit the flow of reason.
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Post by Konkor on Jun 29, 2010 8:15:58 GMT -5
oh and by the way, "the proof that god exists" article isn't logical, it's asinine and uses shallow assumptions to create an illusion of reason to anyone that can be easily manipulated. Kinda reminds me of the bible itself, it only makes sense if you listen to what other people tell you to think Exactly Where? Your Opinions are worthless!
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Post by Konkor on Jun 29, 2010 8:23:10 GMT -5
oh your god they're both that stupid That is your Opinion. Once again,your Opinions are worthless. I could say ALOT OF THINGS about your newage,energy,mind mumbo jumbo. But that would only be my opinion. So you should refrain from it.
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Post by Konkor on Jun 29, 2010 9:01:40 GMT -5
Jesus says first "Have Faith in God" and immediately after that"For verily I say unto you,that ..." And he does not say this parable more than once,But in the Bible their are different accounts of it in the different Gospel books. That is what the word god means there,knowledge of Good and evil.God himself said to the angels,"they have become as one of us"(Genesis 3:5 , 3:22) And,yes,we are all children of the Most High,but why do you think that that gives us special powers,maybe Adam and Eve could have had some powers but theybwould have been stripped from them when they were forced out of Paradise. The real meaning of the New Testament is to spread the Good News,which is that Jesus is the son of God,is sinless,and died as all humans do,but rose himself from the dead. Jesus as God is sinless and death was a curse on Adam and Eve and their children who were sin full. But Jesus acted as the unblemished lamb which was slaughtered on Yon Kippur to appease God's wrath. By Jesus Christ,we are separated from sin. "for not through works are we saved,but by faith" We can do many good deeds but the real reason we are saved is by faith in Jesus as the Lord and his sacrifice. But the Bible also says that"Faith is dead without works"We must do works that mirror our faith in Jesus as our Savior.
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 29, 2010 10:07:44 GMT -5
Now who's opinions are worthless you sodding hypocrite! That last post is mostly your interpretation, and if you wanna know why we reject your faith it's because of interpretations like yours. Don't even pretend you're on "the side of truth" or that you are a messenger for the lord because I'm not buying that garbage. You're a fanatic plain and simple. If I had to guess someone fed you your opinion now you're trying to feed it to us. I've read the bible and have many surrounding me who have read the bible so I have no reservations in telling you that the idea that humans have power is upheld in the bible, magic is preformed in the bible, and you are about as good as any cultist I've ever seen you unquestioning prick. Also, fyi, I don't care what you think of my opinions of your crappy proof, the fact is it's worthless to me because both of them use the same shitty arguments about laws of logic. I call bullshit because I don't even believe in the laws of logic, they haven't done enough investigating into what logic truly is, they just enjoy harping on atheists. You know where I think logic really comes from, I think that when enough data is observed, then and only then can you arrive at a logical conclusion about the observed phenomenon specifically. Beyond that anything labelled is merely a fallacy. That's why I've told you time and again you can't prove god or a lack there of, there isn't enough observable data to conclude that the universe was created through intelligent design, in fact we don't know enough about the universe to know what the hell happened. People like you don't know so you fill in the gaps in your knowledge by saying that some god that doesn't have to make sense is in charge of everything I don't know so I don't have to worry about it. At least I'm not using my beliefs as an excuse to stay stupid, I don't attribute everything to some superior being's grand design, I investigate and do stuff you apparently couldn't even grasp such as put my brain to good use and ponder the nature of things.
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Post by Konkor on Jun 29, 2010 10:51:36 GMT -5
You are the one who brought the disscussion to the bible. I knew that all we could say are our interpritations of it. I am not the only hypocrite around here. I had to put my view up there as you had put yours and if it is possible for me to combat it I do,just as you did. Why are you trying to defeat me with opinions...you never will,because we can each interpret the bible differently. Nature on the other hand has absolutes,that statement in itself is an absolute. Logic is a part of nature that we all abide by,somepeople not knowing. The law of noncontridiction-animals differentiate between pray and predator. It is through logic that a Creator,and a Sustainer,can be proven. You cannot deny logic or you deny everything you think to be logical even that very statement.
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 29, 2010 11:11:15 GMT -5
I'm not trying to defeat you with opinions you ignoramus, frankly I couldn't give a damn about your opinions. What you know about logic could fit into a thimble. You can't apply one concept about logic into every situation. I'm sure those foolish enough to try could conceivably come to the conclusion that logic proves god, but it's an extremely shallow analysis of the nature of logic. It is as Socrates himself once pointed out, logic is based on assumptions and observations. Your concept of non-contradiction and circular arguments may work in some instances but they have no impact in this instance. You can't simply shoot down the arguments atheists have given to refute what Christians have said and call that logical proof of god. All it proves is that you lack perspective.
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sciwiz12
Sith
A fool will lead you astray and all of mankind are fools.
Posts: 182
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Post by sciwiz12 on Jun 29, 2010 11:17:19 GMT -5
I was attempting to have an intelligent debate on whether or not the bible has room to say that people can do extraordinary things so we could settle the legitimacy of people with powers. You're the arrogant air head that brought up the existence of a god and rudely boasted that you were right before we had even really begun.
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Post by Konkor on Jun 30, 2010 8:28:14 GMT -5
First I would like to bring in to recognition the difference between a personal conscious Deity compared to an impersonal conscious less force: A significant debate within the pantheistic community is about the use of the word "God." Pantheists do not believe in a God in the common and traditional sense of a personal creator being. Some modern Pantheists avoid using God-words altogether, since they regard them as misleading. Others feel that the word God is essential to express the strength of their feelings towards Nature and the Universe. Pantheism is little more than a redefinition of the word "God" to mean "Nature," "Universe", or "reality". In Pantheism the word God, when used, is more an expression of the user's feelings rather than of some supernatural power in the Universe. When pantheism is considered as an alternative to theism there is a denial of theistic claims. For example, theism is the belief in a "personal" God that transcends (is separate from) the world. Pantheists deny the existence of a personal God. They deny the existence of a "minded" Being that has intentional states and associated capacities like the ability to make decisions. Source:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism?wasRedirected=true#cite_note-SEP-16 Traditional theism takes the view that God and the world are different. Pantheism, on the other hand would say God and the world are one and the same, that God IS an active part of the world. As a religious view, it could be very harmful. If God is an active part of the world, as claimed by pantheism, then he is a very vengeful god who takes joy in causing misfortune. Ontologically, it would make it impossible to identify and affirm God's saving presence. Additionally, it would negate the in-finiteness of God. the world being a finite place, and God being infinite. At least, that's two flaws I can identify. Though pantheists do go to great length to differentiate the essence of God being different than God. It lacks cohesion at that point, for me. You cannot claim on the one hand that God is in the world and the world is in God, and then claim that you are speaking of the essence of God. Now that I have a definition of what it really means to be a God(to be conscious),I would like to put forth the logical evidence of the existence of an all powerfully,conscious,transcendent Creator and Sustainer. www.carm.org/discussion-logical-absolutes-proof-gods-existencewww.proofthatgodexists.org/main.phpwww.calvindude.com/index.php?id=51www.calvindude.com/index.php?id=52We are not having a discussion any more,you are battling without logic evidence.What ever I say,even though there is Proof for it,you do not accept. I have accepted that I cannot prove my Christian God,but instead have found proof for an all powerful,conscious,transcendent Creator and Sustainer. You are promising things with out evidence. I have given you evidence and I thought we could discuss and exchange evidence. If you do not believe the FACTS than it is a Fact that you are with out help. There is an all powerful conscious Creator. There is proof that there is one. Only in Monotheism is their a Deity which matches the requirements. Which ever religion has the true view of the all powerful,conscious,transcendent Creator and Sustainer is left to find out,but they all have similar qualities,one of which is the wrath exacted by the Creator on those which do not worship and follow the laws given by the Creator. I worship a sole Creator,the Christian God,and Him alone. You do not worship the Creator in any way shape or form and I am sure that "He" is ready to exact judgment on you and your life,whether it be after you die,in some place of punishment,such as the Christian Hell,or during your life now,after all everything is possible for the one who created everything and the concept of everything. Take a look at this site to see what the Bible says about religions like new age- jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/false_religions.htm#mormonAlso,look what the Bible(Deuteronomy18:10-13) says about many things practiced by new agers- www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?passage=Deuteronomy+18%3A10-13
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Post by reaver on Jun 30, 2010 9:55:40 GMT -5
First I would like to bring in to recognition the difference between a personal conscious Deity compared to an impersonal conscious less force: A significant debate within the pantheistic community is about the use of the word "God." Pantheists do not believe in a God in the common and traditional sense of a personal creator being. Some modern Pantheists avoid using God-words altogether, since they regard them as misleading. Others feel that the word God is essential to express the strength of their feelings towards Nature and the Universe. Pantheism is little more than a redefinition of the word "God" to mean "Nature," "Universe", or "reality". In Pantheism the word God, when used, is more an expression of the user's feelings rather than of some supernatural power in the Universe. When pantheism is considered as an alternative to theism there is a denial of theistic claims. For example, theism is the belief in a "personal" God that transcends (is separate from) the world. Pantheists deny the existence of a personal God. They deny the existence of a "minded" Being that has intentional states and associated capacities like the ability to make decisions. Source:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism?wasRedirected=true#cite_note-SEP-16 Traditional theism takes the view that God and the world are different. Pantheism, on the other hand would say God and the world are one and the same, that God IS an active part of the world. As a religious view, it could be very harmful. If God is an active part of the world, as claimed by pantheism, then he is a very vengeful god who takes joy in causing misfortune. Ontologically, it would make it impossible to identify and affirm God's saving presence. Additionally, it would negate the in-finiteness of God. the world being a finite place, and God being infinite. At least, that's two flaws I can identify. Though pantheists do go to great length to differentiate the essence of God being different than God. It lacks cohesion at that point, for me. You cannot claim on the one hand that God is in the world and the world is in God, and then claim that you are speaking of the essence of God. Now that I have a definition of what it really means to be a God(to be conscious),I would like to put forth the logical evidence of the existence of an all powerfully,conscious,transcendent Creator and Sustainer. www.carm.org/discussion-logical-absolutes-proof-gods-existencewww.proofthatgodexists.org/main.phpwww.calvindude.com/index.php?id=51www.calvindude.com/index.php?id=52We are not having a discussion any more,you are battling without logic evidence.What ever I say,even though there is Proof for it,you do not accept. I have accepted that I cannot prove my Christian God,but instead have found proof for an all powerful,conscious,transcendent Creator and Sustainer. You are promising things with out evidence. I have given you evidence and I thought we could discuss and exchange evidence. If you do not believe the FACTS than it is a Fact that you are with out help. There is an all powerful conscious Creator. There is proof that there is one. Only in Monotheism is their a Deity which matches the requirements. Which ever religion has the true view of the all powerful,conscious,transcendent Creator and Sustainer is left to find out,but they all have similar qualities,one of which is the wrath exacted by the Creator on those which do not worship and follow the laws given by the Creator. I worship a sole Creator,the Christian God,and Him alone. You do not worship the Creator in any way shape or form and I am sure that "He" is ready to exact judgment on you and your life,whether it be after you die,in some place of punishment,such as the Christian Hell,or during your life now,after all everything is possible for the one who created everything and the concept of everything. Take a look at this site to see what the Bible says about religions like new age- jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/false_religions.htm#mormonAlso,look what the Bible(Deuteronomy18:10-13) says about many things practiced by new agers- www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?passage=Deuteronomy+18%3A10-13Hey sciwiz, just so you know this is a re-post....He's not even original anymore....now that is just sad.
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