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Power
Feb 13, 2008 4:05:39 GMT -5
Post by darthreignus on Feb 13, 2008 4:05:39 GMT -5
Power comes in many forms, some of those forms bring a stronger power than others. Most of the Sith seek power from weak forms, such as the power in coercion and the power in offering rewards. Other powers are those that come from expertise, those that come from simply holding a position or a title and those powers that come from having a personal charisma. The Sith have mastered these sources of power, they use them to grow and to maintain their dominion. I know of no Sith that has mastered Referent Power, or the power of trust. We've all heard the old adage that it's not what you know, but who and that is a reference to referent power. Referent power comes when you become trustworthy and show your capacity to be useful and good. It takes time to cultivate, but it is the strongest power because it leads to total commitment of those who trust you. It is a fragile power because it is gone the moment that trust is breached. The Jedi are trusted, but they want no power and they do nothing with that trust. They manage themselves and give the Sith time to again plan their destruction. The Sith breach trust at the slightest opportunity. How foolish. Consider Palpatine. He was loved by the people and he gained absolute power. But as soon as he had it he breached the people's trust. Because he breached the trust the people rebelled. Had he been a benevolent leader who cared more for the well being of the empire than of his own personal lust for more power the people would have revered him and never rebelled. If he had simply given love instead of apathy the people would never have been compelled to obey his will but would have done so anyway. The power of trust comes only through service and sacrifice. It comes through true friendships. I hope that we as Sith can learn this lesson. The paths in the dark do not lead to true friendship but they leave a person alone and bitter. Darkness is useful, but should not be overused. It is a tool used to improve oneself, but not to oppress others. If any enemy can see you coming in the light, strike him in the dark. But if the enemy is so used to seeing things in the dark, blind him with the light and he will fall. Use your power wisely and seek to build relationships of trust.
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Power
Feb 15, 2008 16:25:39 GMT -5
Post by The Dark Lord of the GITH on Feb 15, 2008 16:25:39 GMT -5
Wise Words, darthreignus
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Power
Feb 18, 2008 4:51:43 GMT -5
Post by darthreignus on Feb 18, 2008 4:51:43 GMT -5
Thank you. Did its application help you at all? What would you add? What have you noticed, Lord of the GITH?
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Power
Feb 28, 2008 17:36:04 GMT -5
Post by The Dark Lord of the GITH on Feb 28, 2008 17:36:04 GMT -5
You're Welcome. Yes, It's Application Has Helped Me, For I Have Vaguely Noticed As Much. What I Would Add Is:
Without Trust One Has Power, But No Friends... Without Friends One Has Power, But No Joy... Without Joy... Power Means Nothing.
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Power
Mar 24, 2008 18:49:35 GMT -5
Post by raigus on Mar 24, 2008 18:49:35 GMT -5
What foolishness is this reignus!!! There is NO place for trust in the world for a Sith! If ever there should be however it should be given to the Sith and not returned by them. True a Sith should gain the trust of others but NEVER under ANY circumstances should that trust be returned. All of the greatest Dark Lords understood this Darths Bane, Sidious, Revan, Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, and Freedon Nadd. The dark side offers power for powers sake. You must seek with no reservation or hesitation. If you must walk the path you do it will lead you down the path of ruin like Lord Caedus. He to sought to bring peace and look where that has placed him. Being a benevolent ruler would turn you into a fool Jedi which is what you sound like! Peace is lie; there is only passion; Through passion I gain strength; through strength I gain power; through power I gain victory; through victory my chains are broken; the Force will set me free. Clearly you still need to learn this lesson reignus. I may be new here but I have studied the dark side in length. You do not speak as a true Sith but as a Jedi or one who tries to walk both paths. Return when you are ready to embrace the dark side rather than shy away from it!
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Power
Mar 24, 2008 22:45:31 GMT -5
Post by Darth Draconis on Mar 24, 2008 22:45:31 GMT -5
I'll edit this post to respond with my own opinions, but I've run out of time for the moment.
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Power
Mar 25, 2008 11:02:10 GMT -5
Post by darthxul on Mar 25, 2008 11:02:10 GMT -5
raigus, i think you miss the point being made here, some semblance of being trustworthy must be made, people must not be allowed to become too suspicious, or for all of your plotting and scheming you will be revealed for what you are before you are ready.
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Power
Mar 26, 2008 14:48:18 GMT -5
Post by raigus on Mar 26, 2008 14:48:18 GMT -5
I understand this. Which is as I said that trust should be gained from others but under NO circumstances should a Sith return it. Which is what I stated above. This is where deception, treachery, betrayal, and secrecy become the greatest weapons of our order.
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Power
Mar 27, 2008 16:25:37 GMT -5
Post by darthxul on Mar 27, 2008 16:25:37 GMT -5
good, raigus, your first reply seemed to deny that trust was useful on either side, while the origional post seemed primarily dealt with gaining the trust of others with the goal of exploiting that trust to further your aims, which is very much in the vein of the sith.
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Power
Apr 5, 2008 15:06:27 GMT -5
Post by darthreignus on Apr 5, 2008 15:06:27 GMT -5
Thank you Lord Xul Lord Raigus, I find it interesting that EVERY sith you mentioned fell in ruin. I think that proves my point that the Sith need to change some fundamental points of their philosophy. The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again that does not work.
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Power
Apr 9, 2008 8:56:12 GMT -5
Post by raigus on Apr 9, 2008 8:56:12 GMT -5
Hahahaha, reignus you really need to study the ancient Dark Lords more haha. Yes some failed but not all and here is why they failed. Darth Bane did not fail at all and no one can argue that. Darth Sidious failed because he failed to corrupt Vader fully. Revan failed because he never truly gave into the dark side. Exar Kun failed because Ulic Qel-Droma was an inept fool. Naga Sadow failed because he didnt have the full backing of the Sith Empire. Freedon Nadd didnt fail either except after death because he lacked patcience. That is why they failed! Not because of some philosophy mistake. And as you can see Darth Bane who came up with the Rule of Two NEVER failed. You reignus have become as disilliusioned as Lord Kaan. You do not know what it means to be Sith.
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Power
Apr 9, 2008 10:33:08 GMT -5
Post by darthreignus on Apr 9, 2008 10:33:08 GMT -5
Perhaps I don't. But I do know that when the Sith adopted one trait from the Jedi (namely patience) they gained a lot more than they lost. Perhaps the sith would benefit a lot more if they adopted more traits. By the way, what is Darth Bane up to these days? I assume he still rules the universe?
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Power
Apr 13, 2008 22:40:07 GMT -5
Post by Darth Draconis on Apr 13, 2008 22:40:07 GMT -5
Let's keep this discussion civil.
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Power
Apr 16, 2008 14:49:24 GMT -5
Post by raigus on Apr 16, 2008 14:49:24 GMT -5
Maybe we could gain more but what I am trying to help you understand is that we can not stray to far from the path that others showed us is the way of the Sith. Maybe we could should both take something from each others knowledge. I do not wish you as my enemy but do not make fun of Darth Bane again, it shows weakness that you can not attack me directly. So let us try to learn from each others point of view now before we both do something foolish even though I am going against my instincts by trying to difuse this argument between us. I will be more open minded the question now is... will you?
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Power
Apr 19, 2008 2:28:30 GMT -5
Post by darthreignus on Apr 19, 2008 2:28:30 GMT -5
I apologize, though I did mean to offend a little, it was only to make a minor point: in the Star Wars books Bane was a fantastic Sith, he made fundamental changes that were not only important, but vital in keeping the fundamentals of the Sith intact. However, in reality, he never existed. What I would have those who would seek power to do is look at those that have power, and study how they achieved it. If you'll permit, I'd like to show a few examples over time. The first will simply be the founding fathers of the United States. They were brilliant men, courageous and eloquent. They believed in what they stood for, and they knew that any basis aside from religion and education would be inadequate for starting a new nation and society. They came to this conclusion by studying the civilizations that existed before, those that were based upon law, money, military, tyrany and the like. These men gained the trust of the people, and the title of kingship was even offered to George Washington. Thank goodness that he did not accept it, for if he had my home would be ever so much different, and I fear for the worst. He was chosen, elected, to rule the people, and when the term of his power was at hand, he stepped down. He now lives in blessed memory of all, and none can argue his greatness because of the legacy he left. The same can be true of many of the first presidents (a study of James K. Polk may actually give the Sith great insight indeed) and every so often a new and great political leader comes. Please feel free to comment and by all means if you disagree I'd love to debate it with you. I'll be contrasting great leaders from poor in the time to come. I fear however that time draws short, and many demands are upon my time. Again, I offer a sincere apology for those I may have offended, but I do hope that I have got you at least thinking that perhaps the fundamentals of power are more than just those of coersion.
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Khaos
Force User
Posts: 26
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Power
Apr 19, 2008 6:41:49 GMT -5
Post by Khaos on Apr 19, 2008 6:41:49 GMT -5
I woud remind you however, that during the revolutionary war that in figting our freedom, the minute men used what was then known as guerilla warfare. they broke from traditional napoleonic tactics and chose to actually use cover to shoot from. Whch was, at the time considered dishonorable and underhanded. They were also not above using terrorist tactics to start things off with a boston tea party. So, while as an american I am proud of my founding fathers, I still see them with a realist eye.History is written by winners, regardless of how they achieved there power.While I do agree that power can be had through more han just coersian, I would still think it an option to achieve certain ends.
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Power
Apr 19, 2008 14:17:10 GMT -5
Post by darthreignus on Apr 19, 2008 14:17:10 GMT -5
Exactly! Kyoki, you are dead on in my estimation! The American revolutionary war was bloody, new tactics were used and the Americans were seen to be doing things that were cold, cruel and bitterly against the rules. And they won! But why did they win? Why were they fighting? What did they believe in? The Brittish sought to quell the rebellion. The Americans wanted to show that they weren't going to be oppressed anymore by those who should have been trustworthy. So they put their trust in men who promised a new and different system, one that had never been tried before, and they went to war with the most powerful nation on earth. Brittain tried to coerce the colonies into submission, the founding fathers of America earned the trust (after much trivail, mind you, if my understanding of US history is accurate) and secured the support of the masses. The revolution was born and after it's victory the victors gave what they promised: freedom. Yes, the winners do write history, but independant sources also would suggest that divine guidance was given to aid the fledgling nation and the great founding fathers of it were prepared for that purpose before they were ever born. If this were a religious site I would site things further, but as before I have no desire to offend. We were discussing Sith philosophy, after all.
If you accept that great and trustworthy men leave a greater legacy than the great and untrustworthy do, I would have you take a look back to first: world war 2 and then to the cold war.
Hitler (in my personal opinion) was mad, and because of his madness he lead his people into a vastly ambitious and catastrophic war. I don't really want to dwell on the carnage he inflicted upon the Jews, that's not my point. In his statements of hatred of them he was completely trustworthy that he would carry out his desires. I would instead point to his relationship with with Russia. He promised them that he was their friend, that he was their ally, that they together would conquer the enemies in Europe and all over the world, and Stalin believed him. Stalin was betrayed by Hitler, who invaded Russia with a vengeance. Here, in Ukraine, millions died. Because Hitler betrayed his trust, sought to seize power that was not his the Soviet government turned to its former foes and they launched a massive offensive that crushed the german forces. I believe (and I fear that my numbers may be slightly off, but not by much) that 50 million german troops died before the end of that war.
Stalin (another man that went mad) was so paranoid during WWII and the cold war that he sent millions of his own people to their deaths in the gulag and by the various secret services that eventually were to become the KGB. He left his legacy of torment (if you don't mind the obscure Star Wars reference) until the USSR finally fell on that blessed Christmas eve. Even now the people don't trust the government, and why should they? They've only ever been oppressed by it.
No, coercion, secrets and lying to a people to get them to perform is not the way. Great literature by Shakespear shows this often (although it too is fiction, it often depicts archetypes of what is good and noble of the human spirit, and also the carnal and unatural that is the result of trying to seize power that is not to be taken).
The Scriptures also show this pattern, in fact in religion you can find the greatest examples of those who would coerce others to follow, and those who lead by example and sometimes stand by themselves while the world would mock and scorn them because they refuse to yeild to the devilishly democratic view that "everyone's doing it". Woo, that was a long one for me...
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Power
Apr 21, 2008 15:55:01 GMT -5
Post by raigus on Apr 21, 2008 15:55:01 GMT -5
Hahaha a mouth full indeed. Yes I see where you are going with this. I respect what you say and I think it is wise. However look beyond those who only lead in that way as well. Darth Caedus lead in a similar way and look where he is right now. I say look all ways first decide the best course of action from the way that benefits you and the Sith most and take it.
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Power
Apr 21, 2008 22:33:27 GMT -5
Post by Darth Draconis on Apr 21, 2008 22:33:27 GMT -5
Also keep in mind that not all Sith are interested in leadership...
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Power
Apr 21, 2008 23:45:57 GMT -5
Post by darthreignus on Apr 21, 2008 23:45:57 GMT -5
I would be a fool to contradict either of you, for you're both correct. Just keep in mind that in the real world, acting like a fool on the verge of war crimes will take you to where you don't want to be, on the edge of your power and about to lose everything. Yes, for those Sith who don't seek power there's no need to strive for perfect leadership. Perhaps what they need is perfect control of themselves so that their passions become their ultimate power to be used whenever and wherever decisive action is needed.
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